Direto XR problems with ERG mode

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mumhra
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby mumhra » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:49 pm

jsti1000 wrote:I'm writing this post because I don't want that Elite make any updates on this issue.
.....
Speed isn't goal on erg mode. Holding power is. Yes it is hard:)

Well, that is a strange conclusion. If speed isn't the goal, then Elite should make an update. With how my Qubo worked i also had to hold the power. I just did not have to worry about what gear i was in or how fast i was pedalling. I just had to hold the power.

Whatever. I think what we are looking for is something like the power smoothing with the Wahoo Kicker and Kicker snap : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L7hfT0I7E0
And add a button somewhere where users can decide if they want the power smoothed or not in ERG mode. I think everyone must be happy with something like this.

adam.kapala
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:59 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby adam.kapala » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:22 pm

Am I the only one who finds cadence sensor readings more than unreliable? I've just took GOAT session in The Sufferfest and to my surprise power targets were much overshoot at the very beginning (like 380W instead of 330W) or after few seconds it was impossible to reach power targets (close to given cadence max power was sth like 270-280 instead of 330). During recovery intervals app was showing cadence like 44-49, when I've felt like it was 80-90 and the target was 90 — power target of course were impossible to meet. Afer stopping and pedalling again sensor seemed to be adding additional 40 rpm in a magical way. Throughout whole workout neither power nor cadence targets were even approachable. Frankly speaking my old other trainer — tacx flow delivers better experience when data reliability are considered. Also in my view problem was more vivid during bluetooth connection than ant+ (I've switched after first interval). Next time I'll try with independent cadence sensor and see it it helps. Using just normal (not ERG mode) everything seems to be working just fine.

prozorowicz
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:41 am

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby prozorowicz » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:24 pm

No, I haven't noticed anything like that, except maybe with one foot crank rotation. Then he reports to me about half the term of office. But this is a direct result of the way the trainer estimates the cadence.

You can connect a cadence sensor to the trainer - not necessarily buying from Elite, all you need is a simple contract speed sensor, a magnet on the crank, a sensor on the bicycle frame, connect the mini jack to the trainer and you have the real cadence in the trainer.

mumhra wrote:
jsti1000 wrote:I'm writing this post because I don't want that Elite make any updates on this issue.
.....
Speed isn't goal on erg mode. Holding power is. Yes it is hard:)

Well, that is a strange conclusion. If speed isn't the goal, then Elite should make an update. With how my Qubo worked i also had to hold the power. I just did not have to worry about what gear i was in or how fast i was pedalling. I just had to hold the power.

Whatever. I think what we are looking for is something like the power smoothing with the Wahoo Kicker and Kicker snap : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L7hfT0I7E0
And add a button somewhere where users can decide if they want the power smoothed or not in ERG mode. I think everyone must be happy with something like this.


No, the conclusion is absolutely correct.
You have unrealistic expectations for ERG mode, and you have no idea what the human-generated power characteristics are.
Register any ERG training on Qubo, provided that the registration is done with a normal power meter (crank, pedals, etc.). Only then will you find out how a person generates power and how much this power can be variable. Not only on the trainer, but also on the road. It is impossible to maintain the power of 200W as accurately as it looks on the chart of Qubo or Wahoo trainers with enabled reporting of smoothed power (almost a straight line). It simply is impossible, even on a trainer as good as the Tacx Neo. Even this one is not able to react quickly enough to maintain a super-precise set power.
Actually, as I recall, the Tacx Vortex reflected it quite well and was able to react relatively quickly to changes in force, moment and cadence of the user. And this is when registering the power in the crank. But it had a terribly low inertia and held almost the same resistance throughout the entire crank turn, which made it a terrible spin and ride.

The heavier the flywheel, the better the feeling while driving, but it is much harder to correct changes in force, torque and cadence of the user.
It seems to me that you expect false information that if you have an ERG, e.g. 200W, the trainer should report as much all the time, as it is done in Wahoo (with smoothing turned on) or as you had in Qubo. This is the wrong approach. This, of course, can help you earn a star in Zwift, but it's worth learning to spin evenly.

Would anyone be happy to cheat on him? You surely, maybe others too, because they would see something that would please them, even though the actual characteristics of the resistance would be quite different. Any normal-minded cyclist turns off the smoothing feature in Wahoo, because that's just a lie. When turned off, they wonder what their variable power generation characteristics are. This helps you learn to spin smoothly and maintain power. Contrary to appearances, also in Wahoo trainers there are fluctuations in braking power (although smaller than in the Direto), but this is how it works.

thomas.luckner
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:34 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby thomas.luckner » Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:05 pm

Today I tried to do a workout in Zwift wih smoothing set to 1.
The result was pretty surprising. It was the best I‘ve every reached.
Normally I would have expected that by setting the value higher not lower?

mumhra
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby mumhra » Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:56 pm

prozorowicz wrote: No, the conclusion is absolutely correct.
You have unrealistic expectations for ERG mode, and you have no idea what the human-generated power characteristics are.
Register any ERG training on Qubo, provided that the registration is done with a normal power meter (crank, pedals, etc.). Only then will you find out how a person generates power and how much this power can be variable. Not only on the trainer, but also on the road. It is impossible to maintain the power of 200W as accurately as it looks on the chart of Qubo or Wahoo trainers with enabled reporting of smoothed power (almost a straight line). It simply is impossible, even on a trainer as good as the Tacx Neo. Even this one is not able to react quickly enough to maintain a super-precise set power.
Actually, as I recall, the Tacx Vortex reflected it quite well and was able to react relatively quickly to changes in force, moment and cadence of the user. And this is when registering the power in the crank. But it had a terribly low inertia and held almost the same resistance throughout the entire crank turn, which made it a terrible spin and ride.

The heavier the flywheel, the better the feeling while driving, but it is much harder to correct changes in force, torque and cadence of the user.
It seems to me that you expect false information that if you have an ERG, e.g. 200W, the trainer should report as much all the time, as it is done in Wahoo (with smoothing turned on) or as you had in Qubo. This is the wrong approach. This, of course, can help you earn a star in Zwift, but it's worth learning to spin evenly.

Would anyone be happy to cheat on him? You surely, maybe others too, because they would see something that would please them, even though the actual characteristics of the resistance would be quite different. Any normal-minded cyclist turns off the smoothing feature in Wahoo, because that's just a lie. When turned off, they wonder what their variable power generation characteristics are. This helps you learn to spin smoothly and maintain power. Contrary to appearances, also in Wahoo trainers there are fluctuations in braking power (although smaller than in the Direto), but this is how it works.

Thank you for your clarification. I now understand more clearly what you ment in your previous post.
However i agree with you completely when you say that a person delivers his power not as smooth as the Qubo or Wahoo trainers show, i also think it is an exaggeration to call it "cheating". To me, as long as a person delivers the power zwift askes, wether it is power curve is smoothed out over an entire turn of the crank or even 2 or 3 turns, he is delivering the power that is asked and therefor a star should be earned in Zwift.
I understand completey where you are coming from. For you it is important te learn and spin evenly. For me, i could'nt care less. I am almost 50 years old and used to ride dirt bikes my entire life. Approx 5 years ago i grew tired of breaking bones in my body and decided to switch to a mountainbike. Since there are no big hill close to where i live it was cross country mountain biking that was most suitable for me. I quickly discoverd that on downhills and on technical terrain i was a lot faster then most of the other mountainbikers. But on flat surfaces and especially on uphills everybody passed me. Someone told me i should also ride on the road in order to improve on my mountainbike. I just lacked the condition and the stamina. So i tried cycling on the road. I found it boring as hell. I've tried it several times and it really is nothing for me. I just don't see the fun in it. Then i discovered Zwift and i like Zwifting a lot more then riding on the road. I just use it to improve my condition. It's a great addon next to my mountainbike. But i don't need smoothly spinning on my mountain bike, so therefor i don't need it in Zwift either. And that is why i think the option should be given on wether if you want the power to smoothed or not when using ERG mode.

That said, when i first tried ERG-mode with my Qubo i immediately thought of shipping it back to where it came from. Now, a few days later, i have calmed down on it. I will keep it. I will probably do less workouts in zwift then that i used to do but ok. I will find other fun stuff to do in Zwift.

jsti1000
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:22 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby jsti1000 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:22 pm


pablito
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby pablito » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:46 pm

Hi all,

first of all, verry interesting to read through this thread.
I kind of have some similar issues. When I'm doing a workout in ERG like yesterday with 3x9x30s/15s at 360W/170W the trainer was never able to reach the 360W. For me it seemed like the trainer settled on something like 340W, the average value was even lower. I'm trying to download Golden Cheetah so i can create some nice xls charts to show.

vvillamediana
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:35 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby vvillamediana » Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:26 pm

Hi all,

sorry for my rusty english.

I´m sharing with you all this problems until today, when I hope the solution has come. I have a Direto XR since 5 weeks ago, and I always did my workouts in Zwift reaching the requested power changing my cadence and gears. Like I was living in ignorance, and never had an interactive trainer before, always think this behaviour was Ok. Until get this site and your descriptions about your experiences.

My scenary is this:

* Trainer Direto XR.
* MTB Bike with 1x12 gears. 36 front ring and 11x50 rear.
* Power Smoothing set to 2.
* Firmware 073
* Hardware revision 001

I read here the recomendation in use "short gears", and always with small front ring. No way, I only have one. But what I did today was two different things:

* I began the workout stopped. I think this is not important, but I tell you anyway.
* I select a 36x28 (8th crank) gear in my 1x12 gearing. This is a very short gear for me, and I never used this gear before. I always used third, second and first gears (15, 13 and 11) in workouts.

It runs incredible. From my initials pedals, I feel resistance adapting to the desired power of the workout. Cadence? No matter. Initally during de warmup, my cadence was about 72-78 rpm and after this I used to get 84-85 major part of time. Simply it worked. I had changes from 2 minutes at 140 watts to 30 seconds at 345 watts. No problem: in two or three seconds desired power was got. Going up and down in power. In stages of high power, my cadence went down, but it works fine, but indeed, lower cadence implies harder efforts what implies bigger jumps in wattage (less smooth).

It´s like I had a new trainer. Never before I runs a workout in ERG mode like today. I expect no changes tomorrow, please!!!

What I recomend you to try is this:

* Short gears (or very short, like in my case).
* Don´t look at cadence. Forbiden change gears. Only concentrated in power.
* Just in case, start your workout stopped.

I hope this will be useful for you. Sorry for my english.

Hugs everyone and take care!!!

enricx.ec
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:10 am

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby enricx.ec » Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:11 am

hi all, I bought the direct drive xr three days ago and I had read about the difficulty of using the erg mode and that it fluctuated above and below the intended target, but given the difficulty of finding a direct drive roller in this period I finally gave up , apart from the fact that as a first approach I immediately found a problem not a little, my XR has the axis where the freewheel spool is mounted longer than about 3.5 mm, what does it mean? that having to use the adapters for 12x142 the adapter on the right side (gear side) cannot enter what is necessary to have the measure of 142 .... with the almost impossibility of installing the bike on the roller, I had to modify the adapter to at least try it also because the gearbox did not work with more than 3mm off center, and then started pedaling, the problem appeared by those who more or less encountered it, floated up and down and remained under the target of a 20 watts a lot ... too and then I read the last post here before mine ... used with agile fixed gear, in my case 35/28 sram the XR does its dirty job and very well, I use Xert and there are workouts where there is is the smart mode where in high-power intervals for 30 s you start from 500 watts and steadily decrease up to 350 and then recover 40s and then restart with another repeat, in 2/3 seconds it manages the resistance and instantly adjusts and follows the variation, changing ratio begins to fluctuate re but if you re-enter the initial relationship again you go back to work, thank you vvillamediana;)
Google traduttore :D

Ltc044
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:55 am

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby Ltc044 » Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:39 am

vvillamediana wrote:Hi all,

....

What I recomend you to try is this:

* Short gears (or very short, like in my case).
* Don´t look at cadence. Forbiden change gears. Only concentrated in power.
* Just in case, start your workout stopped.

I hope this will be useful for you. Sorry for my english.

Hugs everyone and take care!!!



... just en additional information:
- what do you mean for "start your workout stopped" ?

Do you mean that when you start the workout you are not moving the pedals ? That is to say you start from zero ( with strong resistance the first pedal movements) ?


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