Direto XR problems with ERG mode

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jhankey
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:33 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby jhankey » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:53 pm

Can confirm that the wahoo app has the option to set the wheel circumference properly.
Wahoo control upset my direto so it was not usable in zwift... be warned, using elemnt or bolt to control the direto is not a good idea.
To recover from the issue had to load in an elite erg training program. After that zwift worked fine. Scary though!

Getting much better at targeting watts in both normal ride mode and erg mode.

I can live with it now.

Calibration using the elite app has to be done whilst connect by ant+ ... bluetooth does not work.

thomas.luckner
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:34 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby thomas.luckner » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:09 am

Calibrations using the elite app has to be done whilst connect by ant+ ... bluetooth does not works

For me Bluetooth calibration works fine - so that shouldn’t be a general problem

mumhra
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby mumhra » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:07 pm

It looks like the new Elite trainers really have a problem in ERG mode. Not only the Direto XR, which this topic is about, but also other Elite trainers. I found the same problem online with Elite Suito en i have the same problem with the trainer i bought, the Elite Tuo. I know, the Tuo is a lot cheaper en maybe i should not complain, but i do. ERG mode is simpley unusable. It fluctuates like crazy and all i do is try and hit the wattages Zwift asks me to. I thought the meaning of ERG mode was that i should not bother to hit the wattages Zwift asks me to hit. I just have to pedal...

Before this TUO i had an older Elite trainer, the Elite Qubo digital smart b+ . Look at the power map of the ramp test i did a few months ago with this trainer :
Image
You can see the 20 watt steps every time Zwift asked me to power up.

But sadly the Qubo broke down so i had to buy a new one. I am not interested in a direct drive trainer and since i was very happy with the Elite Qubo i decided to stick with Elite. So i bought the Tuo. Here is the power map of the ramp test with the Tuo :
Image

It's clearly that it is me trying to be spot on while the trainer should do that for me. It's simple. Al we want is for ERG mode to work so that we can win all the stars when doing workouts in Zwift. For some reason it seems like the modern Elite trainers can't do that. I have no idea why not, and to be honoust, i don't care why not. My firmware is uptodate and my trainer is calibrated. I can connect via bluetooth or via Ant+ but it does not make a difference at all.
I will give it a few days. I'm still undecided if i will keep the trainer or not. I know that ERG mode should work since Elite says it works. But it doesn't...

jhankey
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:33 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby jhankey » Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:01 am

Mumhra, can you post both those graphs again with cadence. This is quite important.

Elite argue that if you put a power meter on your crank on the older machine, the actual trace would be like the trace from the new machine. The older trainer, and many other trainers filter the power variance so that it is hidden. This 'honesty' ,however, is causing issues with zwift erg modes as it seems to be designed to take the more filtered view.
It has taken me a while but I am getting used to the way the xr behaves, and I expect it is a lot more 'real world' than most trainers. It is very good in the normal ride mode in zwift. But anyway, please post both graphs with cadence as that is a really important factor.

mumhra
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby mumhra » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:47 am

jhankey wrote:Mumhra, can you post both those graphs again with cadence. This is quite important.

Ok, but i think it won't help you much since i never bothered much with cadence.
On my older machine i simply did not have to because the machine gave me the power i wanted. It simply changed the resistance very quickly. It sometimes could spike but that was on very rare occasions.
On my new machine i did not pay attention to cadence either since i was speeding up and slowing down the entire time trying to hit the target power Zwift wanted me to hit. It felt like you wrote on page 7 of this thread (yes, i read the entire thread) : "I feel like i am chasing a moving target"

Anyway, here are the screenshots
ramp test with the Qubo Digital Smart B+
Image

ramp test with the Tuo
Image

If you have a tip for me what i should do to make that 2nd graph look more like the 1st one, please give it to me. I am willing to try it all. I will try and do a ramp test immediately and i will try and stay on the same cadence, though i have no idea yet if i am any good at it since i never bothered with cadence.
I have allready found out that it is easier to hit the required wattages when i put ERG mode off and go back to sim mode. This simply is because the resistance does not fluctuate so much. But if that is the case, why bother with ERG mode on the machines since it is completely unusable.

jhankey wrote:Elite argue that if you put a power meter on your crank on the older machine, the actual trace would be like the trace from the new machine.

Well, to be honoust, i think they could be right. I have always wondered how it was possible that i never could go over the wattages Zwift asked me to hit when i was in ERG mode. For example, when Zwift asked me to only hit 100 W i could go all out and it would stay at 100 W although i knew that i was pushing a lot harder. I always knew that that had to be a mistake but i was very happy with that mistake because i could win the stars in Zwift that i needed. With the Tuo that will almost be impossible.
Other brands of trainers are able to do it so i think with an Elite trainer it should be possible as well. It used to be possible with an Elite trainer but it isn't any more. It can't be to difficult to make a firmware update to make it possible again. We are asking for the trainer to be less precise in ERG-mode, not more precise.
Last edited by mumhra on Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

BelgianFlandrien
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:08 am

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby BelgianFlandrien » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:04 am

I got to say im in the same boat as jhankey right now. It took me a while, but im getting used to the Elite ERG mode now. Im not "trying to chase the moving target" anymore and just keep my cadence as stable as possible. Tho I still hope they can improve it further with future firmware updates.
Together with Elite support I did a couple of tests, and for me smoothing level 4 works best (+ the 3sec avg setting in Zwift).

When looking back at my Wahoo Snap, who had the same flatline in ERG as your Elite Qubo, it now looks very unrealistic, lots of smoothing must be happening in the background.

mumhra
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby mumhra » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:42 am

OK, just completed the new ramp test. Not trying to hit the asked wattages like before (or hitting a moving target like we say) but just focusing on cadence. I tried to keep it at 80 rpm. I did not pay any attention to the wattages. I placed my chain on the small chainring on the front and in the middle of the cassette at the rear. I did not change gears at all. That is something i maybe did in the other tests since i sometimes do that, also in ERG mode.
Image

As you can see the graph looks a lot better. But i have a few remarks.
1. Ramp test starts with 5 minutes of free ride and then 1 minute at 100W. Since i was not looking at wattages and only at RPM's in that first minute of 100W i was the entire time at approx 120W. This means that, if i was doing a workout on Zwift and trying to earn a star, i would not have earned it. So in order to earn stars i have to try and hit a moving target since keeping the same cadence the entire time does not give me the wattages i am aiming for. I was pushing 120W with my 80 rpm and the gearing that i was in. In order to push only 100W i should've slowed down, which i didn't because i was aiming for a stable cadence this time.
2. It was not easy to keep the cadence stable when the power changed. And it only went up with 20W each time it changed. When doing a workoout the steps are a lot bigger which means it will even be more difficult to keep a stable cadence.
Last edited by mumhra on Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

mumhra
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby mumhra » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:45 am

BelgianFlandrien wrote:Together with Elite support I did a couple of tests, and for me smoothing level 4 works best (+ the 3sec avg setting in Zwift).

I can not find that smoothing option. Maybe the Tuo just does not have that option since it is a lot cheaper then your trainer.

BelgianFlandrien wrote:When looking back at my Wahoo Snap, who had the same flatline in ERG as your Elite Qubo, it now looks very unrealistic, lots of smoothing must be happening in the background.

Well, i agree. When i look at the graphs of my Qubo it indeed look very unrealistic. But the problem is that, in that ERG mode we are actually searching for that unrealistic graphs since zwift asks us that in order to earn stars. I have completed the Zwift academy this year on my Qubo. On this Tuo i would have never have earned enough stars to complete the Zwift academy

jsti1000
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:22 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby jsti1000 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:26 pm

2070 is the wheels size for other trainers... With wheel... The calibration value is about 6548...each direto have the number under the unit. Wideo to calibration is on YouTube. Carefully to do that. First warn the direto at least 10min

jsti1000
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:22 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby jsti1000 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:06 pm

Direto it seems to bu very hard for training in erg mode. I believe that is because of power meter integrated ost. So when we can not hit the target it means we are not ready yet. I'm going to start training with easy workouts. Today I try it on few workouts. More info you can find on Lama lab You Tube videos... Erg mode explained... A few videos....


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