Direto XR problems with ERG mode

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mordorr
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:38 am

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby mordorr » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:52 am

Hi,
inspired by Shane's youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbeliW8uObk&ab_channel=ShaneMiller-GPLama i've tried Wahoo Fitness App with Elite Direto XR and result is more than satisfying.
It would be perfect if this app supported TP workouts!
ERG mode, load changed by + and -
in last segment of 250W i was changing cadence and it was not that bad as well.
why 3rd party app can do it better than Zwfit or Wahoo computer (same manufacturer?)
2020-11-28_00-49-20.jpg
2020-11-28_00-49-20.jpg (126.86 KiB) Viewed 1848 times

jhankey
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:33 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby jhankey » Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:37 am

Hi all, was going to do some testing yesterday and thought that I would start with a calibration.
I'm running the 073 software and it simply wont cal either using the zwift cal or the my etraining app. It lets me do the spin up but after the spin down just says failed to calibrate.... anyone else having issues with this?

Also has anyone managed to connected to a wahoo device(Bolt or elmnt) The reason why I want to do this is to track power over 3min,10min, lap etc whilst zwifting. The problem is that you have to set the wheel size to 2095/12.1 =173.1 and wahoo has a limit on how small you can set the wheel circumference. You will actually get accurate power measurements but the speed numbers are massively fast if you use 2095 in wahoo etc. Is there a know work around for this.

mordorr
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:38 am

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby mordorr » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:14 pm

as per calibration, I've found out doesn't work if you pair myelite and trainer via Bluetooth.
once i set it via ANT+then calibration works well.

as per wahoo, there are two issues. first is elite has multiple sensors (i guess) so number of pulses is multiplied by at least four.
in my opinion wahoo can handle only 500 pulses and above this numer it gets to overflow and your speed is not measured at all.
2nd is the app, which currently doesn't support wheel circumference less than 0.5m. Elite requires 0.174 or something like this for direto. this cause enormous speed and distance.
but due to 1st problem, even if you'd be able to set circumference to 0.174m your speed will be trimmed at about 31kmph.

I've reported it when I was using turno and now, second time once I started using direto. it is annoying and could be easily fixed by wahoo developers.
wahoo has responded like "we don't care. will not be fixed soon" and it is not for years.

as far as I am using mainly wahoo to perform trainings I have 1000s kilometers weekly ;) nice if you'd like show off but from training register is disturbing a bit.
as workaround I am stripping of speed and distance from fit file and the sending to apps.

jhankey
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:33 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby jhankey » Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:41 pm

Thanks Mordorr.... that's about where I am with it. Was just wondering if there was a work around. You would have thought that the app/device requirements could be set up with a simple handshake at connection... are these guys not all supposed to be working to open protocols as long term everyone is just going to default to the easiest devices to use.

prozorowicz
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:41 am

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby prozorowicz » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:32 am

First of all, the Wahoo app is made to control the Kickr trainer. Yes, it can be controlled by other trainers, but only by ANT + FE-C. You can use the controls, at least when it comes to resistance modes and manual power input. The incline mode either didn't work at all, or somehow reacted, but still rather useless, I guess it's related to the Kickr trainer specific mode: incline and wind speed and bike type - probably only useful with a Kickr trainer (including Core) so is the LVL (power curve selection) mode.

The only plus point compared to the Elite app is that the app is completely free and you can very easily use the manual mode of the trainer power setting.

As for the ERG mode from the Wahoo counters, eg Bolt, they may not work well with other trainers than Kickr, for which they were optimized. The google Wahoo group has confirmed cases of damage to the Elite trainers, which were controlled by Wahoo counters. Besides, Wahoo behaved differently with Tacx trainers (eg Neo).

In theory, using ANT + FE-C steering from Wahoo Bolt should work properly, as long as Wahoo is sending the correct steering commands.

Hence, the descriptions of the Elite trainer control from the Wahoo computer may be (though not necessarily) a problem of the Wahoo computer itself (eg Bolt).

My experience with the ERG mode controlled from Garmin Edge 1030 (ANT FE-C) or Zwift does not confirm the cases described by the Bolt user. On the contrary, the control is good, the level of power maintenance is also acceptable.

I did a lot of testing with the XR. In short, the test with smoothing "1":
Image
I marked the change 36-> 52 with arrows and vice versa.

Overall, you can see that the Elite developers have sought to limit high power spikes at the cost of slower reaching target power. It can be seen in both repetitions made on 36/17, as well as on table 52. In the case of 36, reaching the set braking power took approx. 6-7 seconds, including the initial lag (i.e. from the interval change sound), in the second repetition it was longer (longer lag ). On 52/17 you can see a problem with stabilizing the low power of 100W due to the relatively high rotational speed of the flywheel, which is a normal phenomenon and you should be aware of this when changing gears at low power. At 52 it appears that the target power was reached faster, but so were the power fluctuations.

Change the alignment settings to 5:
Image
The effect becomes apparent, especially in reducing power hold fluctuations at the expense of a slight shift to stabilization: 9-10 seconds including initial lag.
Value 10:
Image
Most stable values and maintenance of power, at the expense of shifting to full stabilization. First repetition: from the interval change signal to the reduction of the rapid increase in braking: approx. 10 seconds, from 20 seconds after the signal nice and stable power maintenance. The second is similar: the first 10 s. Initial relatively rapid increase, the next 10 s. Until completely stabilized. 3s lag included.

It looks even better for 52/17: stabilization is achieved in approx. 12s (taking into account approx. 3s of lag - i.e. stabilization of approx. 9s), slightly greater fluctuations in braking power.

The descent with power in the above case is 10s. in the previous - about 5 seconds, and in the first - about 3-4 seconds.

Averaging is what it actually is, which is averaging. The trainer counts the power readings, averages them to the given value and makes resistance adjustments based on that.

Overlapping this with the crank power meter reading (without smoothing):
Image
You can see that the resistance of the trainer increases and decreases much more than it results from the power curve transmitted from the trainer meter (because this is averaged over the last 10 seconds).

As you can see the real increase in the resistance of the trainer is much faster than previously estimated according to the averaged curve and amounts to about 3-4 seconds (5-6 with lag). The decline is also 3-4 seconds.

The trainer doesn't adjust the braking power so slowly, it just pulls up quite hard and then adjusts slower. In the case of dial 36, it was pulled up to 175W in 2 seconds, but from the beginning of the repetition it is 15 seconds, i.e. 13 seconds of tightening. Slow, but very smooth, without power surges (maximum 203W).

The spin chart on the 52/17 counter looks similar:
Image
also here you can see a rapid increase in braking power, although the reported power is averaged, hence it grows slower. The actual power recorded by the external meter shows slightly larger power fluctuations than in the previous case, but this is understandable due to the greater speed of rotation of the flywheel.

Here, the 192W pull-up lasts (according to Power2Max) 4-5s, another 6s. it is a tightening to the set power (actually around, because it reports 197W). Maximum jumps of braking power a bit larger, but not exceeding 7W (on the crank 9W).

The side effect will be lower power recorded with the Direto XR meter by the loss of value during the increasing averaging. Not much, but always.

They could introduce the possibility of entering the average power separately, and the possibility of adjusting the braking power according to the average power. So, separately, the power could be transmitted without averaging (or with averaging specified by the user), and the braking power corrected by averaging. So it would be like in the above graphs, but for the external meter (although P2M averages 3s internally anyway).

I did a test of 100W / 200W intervals (gear 36/17) with power equalization 10. The legs feel different than what you can see on the power numbers taken from the trainer, so I verified it with the power measurement in the crank. Power2Max also has internal averaging (probably 2-3s), hence the measurement is already a bit even, but it is interesting to compare the pure P2M measurement with the average 10 measurement in the Direto XR:
Image
Apart from the lag from the start of the LAP signal (approx. 3s), it is clearly visible that the resistance on the crank is changed normally, only the reported is smoothed. Let's look at a single interval (1):
Image
In the P2M measurement, you can clearly see that the resistance increases in 2 seconds. It should be remembered that P2M has averaging, so the target resistance can be obtained even faster. The Direto measurement report is stretched because it is averaged to 10s. hence the longer rise time (approx. 10 seconds) as well as the fall of the reported power.

Comparing the interval with the power compensation parameter "1" and the data recorded by Power2Max:
Image
You can see that the measurements with their mileage practically do not differ (I did not calibrate P2M, hence a slight downward difference, when I calibrate P2M, the measurements are very similar), and if we compare the last two graphs, you can see a slight difference in stabilization in favor of the first (second) plot, where the braking power is stabilized based on a large power averaging, but this is not such a difference as can be seen from the power data itself reported from the Direto XR.

Elite should introduce a choice of: power averaging, which is a parameter of equalization and stabilization of the operation of the motor moving the magnets, but the possibility of transmitting power not averaged or averaged according to the user's wishes. This would make it possible to set such a good stabilization, as well as the lack of distorted power data for analytical and training purposes (as it is now when you assume power equalization 10). You have to ask Elite to add such an option, although looking at the speed of introducing changes to the Elite, I can see it black ...

mordorr
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:38 am

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby mordorr » Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:31 am

Hi,
First of all - funny that two Poles will discuss in English especially when my English is rather bad :) let's try :)

prozorowicz wrote:First of all, the Wahoo app is made to control the Kickr trainer. Yes, it can be controlled by other trainers, but only by ANT + FE-C. You can use the controls, at least when it comes to resistance modes and manual power input. The incline mode either didn't work at all, or somehow reacted, but still rather useless, I guess it's related to the Kickr trainer specific mode: incline and wind speed and bike type - probably only useful with a Kickr trainer (including Core) so is the LVL (power curve selection) mode.

The only plus point compared to the Elite app is that the app is completely free and you can very easily use the manual mode of the trainer power setting.


Because i did all tests with Zwift using BT, and wahoo bolt via ANT+, and also Wahoo Fitness App is usign ANT+ i would expect same results at least for wahoo bolt and wahoo fitness android app.
i am not going to use wahoo fitness app. it was only for test.
but i'd like to use wahoo bolt for controlling trainer as far as it allows it, it should work. my intention is not to blame on wahoo or elite but just help them both improve product they've delivered to the marked.

Anyway, case when Elite can be broken by faulty ANT+ command sounds ridiculous :)

Could you please let us know HW and FW version that you're using on your elite direto XR? your graphs looks good.
I see this as regression or not expected progression with FW 073.

so far trainer works well, i can do workouts, i can set resistance. i think there is no trianer on the market which could perform short intervals in ERG (less than 20s).

mordorr
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:38 am

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby mordorr » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:24 pm

Hi,

prozorowicz, thanks to your feedback for Wahoo and Elite trainers issue, I've reviewed wahoo google group (i didn't know this group before) and found conclusions that make sense to me:

1. I used Wahoo for couple workouts and then last Sunday I went to ZTPL Coffee Ride on Zwift where trainer did not set expected resistance. i felt some slight changes in resistance but still was able to keep comfy cadence on 10% ascends on the big chainring in front.
connecting it to what was said on Wahoo google group perhaps wahoo mess with elite and every use of Wahoo as controller need to be "cleaned up" with MyEliteApp.

2. I wrote here that currently Elemnt Android app doesn't let you enter 0.174 wheel circumference. this problem apparently is resolved now and i am able to set correct wheel circumference for the trainer. it still doesn't go beyond ~30 kmph due to wahoo bug (perhaps counter overflow) but at least I don't have to strip off speed and distance every workout I do with wahoo.

then final conclusion:
which free app to use for ERG training ?
i am not big fan of Zwift so paying already a lot of money for trainer and wahoo computer I'd like to avoid extra charges for Zwift subscription.
As far as i know MyEliteApp doesn't support Training Peaks workouts - am I correct ?

BR,
Jacek

jhankey
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:33 pm

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby jhankey » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:48 pm

Prozo' great post mate. Thank you for your time. I don't have a separate power meter so it is impossible for me to replicate.... but I will after Christmas!!!
Mordorr, when did the elmnt app update.... I only checked that lat week and couldnt change the wheel circumference? what version of companion app

are you using. Me : 1.36.1.3

Good to confirm that the smoothing only actually smooths the data not the effort, Prozo' just to be clear, were those tests done in erg mode to a defined plan or just you targeting watts?

mordorr
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:38 am

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby mordorr » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:20 am

jhankey,

Looks like my app is older: 1.36.0.278, but i could set circumference as below:
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I did use period as separator as far as I remember,

Anyway - I will not use Wahoo for a while to see if issues reported on Wahoo groups are in fact caused by.

Yesterday I did workout with MyETraining App on Android device and I mixed feelings ...
first of all this app is very bad. should not be released to the market! looks like early beta. but it is not place to discuss about MyETraining ,
I can tell you only that my 90+ minutes workout was saved as 28minutes long and is complete mess... thankfully legs received training as designed :) just Training Peaks doesn't know about it. during workout time control was wrong. segments time and remaining time were random, but ERG worked perfect...

prozorowicz
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:41 am

Re: Direto XR problems with ERG mode

Postby prozorowicz » Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:22 pm

Jacek, that's right.
When it comes to the free android ERG application, check e.g. PowerPeaks (https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... powerpeaks) - Kamil is not very eager to finish and will probably be an eternal beta. .. Minus - ANT + only), possibly computer and Golden Cheetah (https://www.goldencheetah.org/#section-download), training mode works very well (at least in ANT +, I don't know if it controls the trainer via BT).
An alternative application connected to the platform https://trainerday.com/ to
TrainerDay https://trainerday.com/indoor-cycling-training-app/ - the fact that using the full ERG training database requires a fee, but it is only $ 4 / month ($41.99/year). This app, in turn, uses only BT to control the trainer, which actually even has a lot of advantages, at least in places of considerable interference with ANT signals (like in my apartment).

I do my workouts either on Zwift (a big plus, as you can see how much is left to the "gate" of the beginning / end of the interval) or Garmin Edge 1030. The above data was also done as a structural ERG test training controlled by Edge 1030 (I did some tests). Unless I have problems with interference (sometimes, unfortunately, there are), the Edge control works very well.

The smoothness of pedaling affects the quality of ERG control. I recommend workouts to improve the smoothness of power generation, e.g. turning one leg. Perhaps this is the difference between my measurements and those of other people?

I admit that I myself was surprised that smoothing affects this way. You could actually guess it, but only comparing the power measurement of the external meter with the reported power by Direto showed it exactly.
Elite simplified things too much by throwing in one bag smoothing the measurement with the resulting corrections of the stepper motor. Higher smoothing values ​​work very well for stabilizing unnecessary stepper motor adjustments, but reporting the power output after high smoothing spoils the whole effect. Well, almost - if the stabilization is okay, the power measurement data averaged over 10s. they are of little use and introduce considerable delays. Surprisingly, these delays are not actually felt during the control itself, you can see here the algorithm is not based only on averaged power.

One should definitely be separate from the other. That is, of course, the power smoothing value will affect the stepper motor corrections, however the reported power should be transmitted with either no smoothing or with user set smoothing. So there should be two smoothing parameters: the first for the reported power, the second for the internal resistance control system. This shouldn't be a problem, especially in the power transmission option with no smoothing plus smoothing for resistance control.


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